Not for PRO bush people....

[CluckerChiken]

http://www.bushin30seconds.org/finalists.html


Some of those ads are damn professional!

[Anonymous]

I didn't know there were "PRO bush people!"

I didn't know humans with such low ethics qualified az people.

GREAT ADZ!

[AddictChiken]

I suggest a visit to the Holocaust Museum for a bit of perspective on what ignoring tyrany can lead to before you buy anything "hook, line and sinker" that is being spouted off by people who want more power in the press and the DNC.

Sometimes you have to bleed to survive.

[Anonymous]

I think that Bill Maher said it correctly, "Hey, let'z face it, the last election's main topic waz ethicz. Basically, all the candidatez were trying to say they were bigger wife-f*ckerz than the other.....Bush made sure he waz caught grabbing hiz wife'z azz on camera, and that'z ethicz."

I have a lot of friendz who are either in Iraq or have been there and come home. Every time they get in touch with me they say "I don't know who waz the dictator, Bush or Hussein."

When our armed forcez are saying that about the prezident, we have to take a large step back and ask ourselvez wtf iz up with this?

I don't mean to step on your toez or offend you, since it'z obvious that you are a conservative, but I think we are sending the wrong message to the world by policing all the other people'z problemz. If there'z a riot in Paris cuz the people don't like their government, are we going to be the onez to break up the riot or will France? If France doez will we overthrow their government? Will our government lie to us to get us to back them up?

Hussein iz bad, but Bush iz equally az bad.

[Incantation]

Hussein iz bad, but Bush iz equally az bad.

IMHO... I would tend to dissagree with that statement. I respect your opinion but I think thats a large stretch to say Bush is just as bad as Hussien. I'll admit that I dont keep up with the current world affairs as much as I probably should I'll catch the news on TV or radio every now and again so it would be futile and stupid of me to get drawn into a political debate with you because I'd just get stomped by my own lack of info. One thing I think I will say though is you don't see Bush sucking up billions of dollars of US tax money to build himself 70+ palaces all over the US. Now having said that, niether do I blindly follow an believe every single detail Bush says. Twenty years experence on this earth tells me no ones perfect and everyone, from time to time as nice and helpfull as they are, will have they're own agenda. I think the last man in office at least taught you that much. And Im not convinced otherwise that if Gore was in office we wouldn't all still be standing around afte 9-11 pointing fingers at one another with one hand and our tumbs up our ... well you know what... with the other hand. Im not affiliated with any party, nore do I understand or suscribe to the beliefs of conservative/leftist/etc... so if you want to call me something go right ahead because I will not know how to defend myself. I just vote for what looks to be the best person for the job IMHO at the time be them male/female/different ethnicity/etc...

Oh by the way, its the US's systems of checks and balances among the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial Branches of goverenment and the people's rights and ability to vote and have a say that keeps our system from becoming a Dictatorship as you so eliquently put it. Hussain wouldn't have given you the option to call him a Dictator we just wouldn't see or hear from you again. :disgusted:

I appologize if I seemed a little harsh or rude, I dont mean to. That was just my opinion and I felt it was needed. I respect your views but I just dont have to agree with them all. Good part about being american... freedom of speach which I become all the more thankfull for as I grow older... along with the rest of my rights. Think Im going to sign off now though because I've done used up my daily allocation of braincells.

[Anonymous]

I don't mean to step on your toez or offend you, since it'z obvious that you are a conservative,

Just my opinion, I know that I'm a liberal and my viewpointz may differ from a lot of people.

[PherdnutChiken]

I'm still not seeing what Iraq has to do with 9-11 or WWII. Saddam's being a "bad guy" doesn't justify an administration making up reasons for going to war. If it's our new policy to dethrone evil dictators then we need to invade about 25 more countries pronto, because we're falling way behind.

Not much more fond of liberal propaganda than I am of conservative, but that one where someone asks that kid a question and he just shrugs and grins wasn't too far off from how this administration has handled any questioning of its motives. It's disturbing how blatant it's been. And yes, while Bush hasn't denied us our freedom of speech, you can bet there are some people in his ranks who sure as Hell wouldn't mind doing so when it's convenient.

[DirtPoorChiken]

That is the beauty of politics. Everyone thinks they can do a better job and think they know what is right. If you took a poll, I bet you would find that popular opinion says we have had 42 idiots in a row for president and yet the country is still around (I know there has been 43 but I am not comfortable even joking about Washington being an idiot, he did a good job for free after all).


Must be dumb luck :D I think I am going to revive the Federalist party and run for office!

[Anonymous]

The question you have to ask yourself is if the country would still be around if all the presidents had been from one party or the other?

[Incantation]

Do you mean if all presidents were from a party in general or all presidents were from the same party?

Pretty much all have been one thing or another but yeah I would say its a unique balancing act going on it kinda switches back and forth and its stayed fairly stable that way beacause we have 2 main parties some countries have 100s of different parties and it gets all screwed up.

And to answer your question personnaly I think we might still be here but then again we'd probably be alot worse off if all the presidents have been from the same party. Its like listening to the same CD over and over and over for years either you get some variety in there or you tend to go insane. :clubbed:

And no I wasn't offended Graceful, actually I like to hear other people's viewpoints :

1. debating with other people often makes you futher understand your own beliefs and viewpoints

2. like I said above... you keep shuvvleing the same crap in your head you'll get the same crap back out in return and you'll never get anyway

3. well I cant think of a 3 right now I just finnished up a 6pm - 9pm class on regional geography and its applications :crazy:

[GuerillaChiken]

Not to offend Clucker, but isn't it interesting that a European would place such an article. NOT AN INSULT, just interesting!

I didn't vote for GeeDub, b/c in all honesty, where I live there is little to no chance that there will ever be an election where our electoral votes go to a Democrat. So I voted Libertarian! HA! This year I will vote Socialist probably.

To compare Bush to Hussein and/or Hitler is irresponsible if not lets just say a tinsy bit idiotic. But I can see how some people especially in Europe see Bush as dangerous. He threatens to make the United States even more powerful, and unlike our previous president, use that power to secure safety for Americans. Now whether or not he is using that power correctly, I am not sure of.

But I will be the second to admit...that American presidents throughout our grand history have shown immense amounts of irresponsibility, and yes even George Washington. From conflicts with (massacres of) our native population, activities in Latin America, involvement in MiddleEastern affairs, to our very very fun wars in the Phillipines, Korea, and Vietnam, our leaders have proven themselves to be above all human if not a tinsy bit idiotic.

I think they are entertaining, if they aren't a little bit skewed. Something very horrible happened to our country, and the President is responding in the best possible way. Yes the budget and economy has shot to shit, but that can be expected with the military activity going on right now.

Alot of the soldiers I've had contact with aren't happy about having to fight, but they understand their duty. There are some though that thought they signed on for a scholarship program rather than military service.

I will put something in front of you though. Every one has this stereotype that Repubs are racist yet, in the name of "humanity" the Bush Dynasty has sent troops to country's with lets use a Carlin example "brown" people on humanitarian or liberation type missions. While Clinton allowed scores of "brown" people to die in Somalia and Central Africa, while bombing the Serbians from high altitude with little regard for civilian casualty, and having little actual effect on the genocide that was occuring. And I've spoken to refugees from Somalia and Kosovo, their takes on the subject are very interesting. Though our media rarely talks about Somalia b/c it was a Bush activity, Somalis Ive spoken with luv us for what we tried to do, and are pissed off b/c of the half measures of the Clinton Admin.


Holy Shit, that didn't even have a point did it....oh well, tear it up.

[CluckerChiken]

No offense taken Guerilla ;)
I just got it through my email and had to post it...
Most of the stuff the ads are proclaiming are facts (not including the sadam and hitler comparising), so ... he had it coming :P

[GuerillaChiken]

Most of the stuff the ads are proclaiming are facts (not including the sadam and hitler comparising), so ... he had it coming

Well yeah. Mobilize the military of the Netherlands and keep them active and mobile for months now years on end and see what kind of defecit you create. If people in the Netherlands were afraid to travel and the numbers became great, don't you think employment would plummet? I live in KC and we have almost ZERO tourism yet every industry associated with it is hurting, which in a country that is becoming more and more non industrial and more service oriented such a hit has had the desired (from the terrorist standpoint) effect.

The DNC and the hippies are using the current state of affairs as a weapon w/o taking into account how that state came to be. Now does that make them evil, NOPE, but it sure does make them an American Political party. If Gore was in office it would be the Reps crying about the same thing. I bring up the Kosovo example, the "hawkish" GOP was almost entirely against attacking Serbia.

Now "facts", as a European, you should know more than I, that they can be twisted and made to fit any such agenda. Its fun to watch our bobbleheads go at it and use the same example to be both pro- and anti- something.

And about the defecit, the DNC must think everybody has a 10 year memory b/c we've had large deficits before, and we pulled out of em. Granted with massive tax increases and slices and dices in the defense budget.

BAWK! Good discussion post Clucker, nice

[CluckerChiken]

Well, i am not going to proclaim i know eggactly what drove Bush to invade iraq and bomb afgahanistan or why he cant finish a sentence normally....so it would be just my (limited) knowledge of the "facts" vs everyone elses knowlegde of the "facts" ;)

Nobody wins..

ANd i just liked the ads...they be good and funny :D

[Z-Chiken]

What most you American's don't seem to fathom is that you guys have the option of *not* mobilizing the military and not having a déficit in the first place. Half your defense budget on medical welfare would give you one of the best health services in the world, and would remove the need for heavy medical insurance, leaving more money for things that would make you happier... Half your defense budget would still keep you as safe as you can be in this world.

The average Iraqi on the street has won nothing from this war as of yet, and hundreds of thousands of them lost basic services. A few thousand probably lost their lives.

The world is not a safer place. Attacking arab countries to combat terrorism (which by definition is not directly a state controlled phenomenon) is equal to putting out fire with gasoline.

Those adds are good. I just hope American's realise what a totally shit president he has been and get rid of him at the first opportunity.


9-11
9-11
WMD
WMD
blá blá blá :(

[AddictChiken]

I'm still not seeing what Iraq has to do with 9-11 or WWII.

Our national response to the attacks on 9-11 was to declare a war on terrorism, not to declare a war on the particular terrorists who planned and executed that particular act of terrorism. The WWII reference is indirect, but it does present a perspective of what appeasment of tyrany can lead to.

Saddam's being a "bad guy" doesn't justify an administration making up reasons for going to war.

I agree; we should have done just as we did, but not on trumped up reasoning.

If it's our new policy to dethrone evil dictators then we need to invade about 25 more countries pronto, because we're falling way behind.

You have to prioritize these things. Not even the US can handle all the world's evils all at once.

What most you American's don't seem to fathom is that you guys have the option of *not* mobilizing the military and not having a déficit in the first place.

We understand that, but that is not the course we choose for ourselves.

The average Iraqi on the street has won nothing from this war as of yet, and hundreds of thousands of them lost basic services. A few thousand probably lost their lives.

They have won freedom tyrany and the chance for a future governed by thier own will.

The world is not a safer place. Attacking arab countries to combat terrorism (which by definition is not directly a state controlled phenomenon) is equal to putting out fire with gasoline.

This is simply false. Terrorism is down by 41% worldwide.

[Anonymous]

This is simply false. Terrorism is down by 41% worldwide

Where did you get this figure from? I would have thought that, attacks on US Troops in Iraq by terrorists, would constitute a terrorist attack? Lets face it, attacks in Iraq are somewhat commonplace.

Is this a 41% drop world wide?

I think statistics are simply made up in reference to this.

[AddictChiken]

44% actually...

http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-20030501a9.html

[Anonymous]

erm...2002 statistics!?!? Needs moar update!

[Fanatic]

BAWK!

Statistics are always made up, if not directly then by manipulating the dataset or the riles on what exactly is measured. Comparisons of statistics based on different datasets if differnet quality or size or based on even slightly different measurement rules are meaningless. In short, statistics are designed to support lies and manipulating percieved reality.

Problem I have with current US policy is that it is shortsighted in many respects. I see the US people loose many rights. I see foreign visitors, being subjected to hilariously stupid rules (locals problably as well), all in the name of security.

At the same time, the US enforces many of their rules on other countries (even democratic ones) and ignores the soverenity of these countries. They also do not feel subject to international laws, even while they use them to make arguments themselfs (when it is convientent).

They don't allow US people to be subject to international laws, but they do demand from other countries that they hand over people without proof, so they can be put in jail by means of 'plea bargain'.

Realy, at this particular moment there is no greater thread to world freedom then the US and its administration. The US lost a lot of sympathy and subsequent co-operation from many countries this way. All thanks to Bush and his rather dumb administration. But the US is still a democracy and as long as you got enaugh money you have freedom and aquire more of it. And if you have connections in addition to that, there are no limits to what you can do in this world.

If this trend continues, then it will turn into a VS against the world kind of conflict instead of a freedom against terror one. Then finaly the terrorists will have won.

Good job Bush!

PS.

All this from a person who was for the attack on IRAQ (readup on my archived posts in the old forum). Not because of the weapons, but because of what Sadam could do by manipulating the swarming hordes of dislocated poor and mostly fundamental Islamic people.

My fear of the US goverment not being prepared to look and act beyond conquering this country have come true. Then again, you US people get what you voted for, to bad it impacts us all. Please in the name of peace correct YOUR mistake next election, will ya?

[AddictChiken]

My fear of the US goverment not being prepared to look and act beyond conquering this country have come true. Then again, you US people get what you voted for, to bad it impacts us all. Please in the name of peace correct YOUR mistake next election, will ya?

The biggest error would be to fail to follow through with what we have started.

[AddictChiken]

erm...2002 statistics!?!? Needs moar update!


It has only been 2004 for 14 days now; you were expecting the 2003 compiled data already?

http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/text2003/0430trrpt1.htm

http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/texts/03043030.htm

[Fanatic]

That effectivly means they stopped democracy by holding the world hostage in the name of peace and freedom.

What exactly is the roadmap from Bush and his admistration? They did not even had plans (as I feard) to handle post war IRAQ. I was hoping for a marschal plan, like the one that helped Europe recover after WWII. Europe would have helped out in this case, but no.....

We must have faith in the future vision of someone that did not have plans in place in case of a military victory a few months down the road? And what exacly about all these freedom restricting laws that are by no means helping anything but more burocracy? WHat about the lies being told by the White house, in order to force these new policies trough?

[Snake-Chiken]

You corect about the stats fan I creativly doctor my stats in work to make sure I get good bonus each month.

MWAHAHHAHAHHAHA

[Z-Chiken]

Addict... How do you know terrorism is down? How do you know America's policies are not fomenting a second generation of Arab fundamentalism? How do you know that another huge attack is not around the corner? Those statistics are meaningless, they just refer to less terrorism in one year, which is natural after such a huge attack, especially since Al Qaeda is regroping.

And how the hell is war a better option than fighting terrorism in their own terf with intelligence agencies? I see a whole lot of dead people that probably didn't need to die for America's great fight against terrorism. It does make for good ratings though. Or does it?

And the problem is not just the war per si, Saddam and co are gone, and that is a good thing, the problem is the monumental cock up that post war is turning out to be. You cannot go into a culture and impose your values. All you get is attrition and grief. Even if your values are set on solid principles like democracy. Change takes time and hard work. It is not a Blitzkrieg process.

[DirtPoorChiken]

If you want peace, get rid of the Humans....


Seriously. Take a long look at the games you are playing right now. MW4, HW, NWN, AA, BF1942.... Hmmm real peaceful games. We enjoy these games so there must be something about conflict that is naturally enjoyable. I don't think it makes us bad people to play these games but there must be something in the DNA code the leads us there (at least some of us). The MW4 universe is based off Battletech which is centered around humanity kicking the crap out of each other over a thousand years in the future. Sounds like a realistic future to me.

The USA has always been in a damned if you do, damned if you don't position so I figure if we are going to get yelled at, it might as well be for doing....

[AddictChiken]

Addict... How do you know terrorism is down?

That is a simple measurement. It is derived from any sampling or anything, it simply reflects that there were 44% less incidents in 2002 as compared to 2001 (the death toll is *way* down also, but that is, in part, an artifact of one monumentaly deadly attack in 2001.)

How do you know America's policies are not fomenting a second generation of Arab fundamentalism?

Are you saying that Clinton era policies lead to 9-11? If not, then how do you support the hypothysis that policy cause fundementalism, if so, then how do Bush era policies (certainly distinct from Clinton era policies) net the same results as Clinton era policies?

Those statistics are meaningless, they just refer to less terrorism in one year, which is natural after such a huge attack, especially since Al Qaeda is regroping.

Running for cover, more likely but still; 2002 had the lowest number and impact in terrorism in 33 years, not just compared to 2001.

And the problem is not just the war per si, Saddam and co are gone, and that is a good thing, the problem is the monumental cock up that post war is turning out to be.

How is post-war Iraq a "cock up?" The recontruction and progres towards home rule is proceeding very well, even as compared to past events often quoted as monumental successes, such as Germany and Japan.

Change takes time and hard work. It is not a Blitzkrieg process.

Quite so. I could hardly agree more.

[Fanatic]

I feel I to much love these kind of discussions. In the name of saving bandwidth, I will run low for the next comming 20 posts or so :).

Fanatic

[Z-Chiken]

I agree the games we play are wargames. But they are just games. In my case they help me vent, and any agrression used online is less aggression coming out at the wrong times in real life. IMO that is a good thing. But I would not be surprised if there are dead soldiers out there that joined the military inspired by a wargame. What is AA if not a massive recruitment ploy? Goes both ways this argument.

As for Clinton, IMO he was the best American president of recent times. Fundamentalism against America goes back further than that. Bin Laden is no Teenager.
Bush does not cause fundamentalism, it was allready here, however, as Bush's senior's war probably helped make 9-11 more probable I would not be surprised, if saddened, if Bush junior's war made another terrorist strike more likely.

As for the post war cock up: well, I guess the war is not really over, lots of American (and other) soldiers still die. And I have had first hand accounts of what the atmosphere is like on the ground, my cousin is a royal marine, he was in Basra.

But hey, if everyone agrees that with hard work and time change is possible I do believe that there could be a positive outcome for Iraq. Every cloud has a silver lining. Germany and Japan are good examples of how post war policies can help countries evolve. Now would be the time we test if such a reconstruction is possible in a country of Arab culture I guess...

I am not 100% antiamerican guys, it's just that the "we can so we will" attitude that is unsetteling. That is what we are supposed to be fighting in the first place.

So, out of Zeph's bag of stale quotes: If you fight fire with fire all you get is one hell of a firestorm.

Thats enough out of me, before I get my banana shot up :D :D :D

[PherdnutChiken]

Fundamentalists believe there is one true way to live out your life. They don't like people acting out of preestablished roles (women in particular), have no tolerance for the questioning of authority, and see any way of life that is not their own as a threat to their very existence. Until we start hitting the enemy with rapidly deployable mini-malls and carpet coupon bombing, I'm not sure how we're ever going to be rid of the hold these jagoffs have on their people. Don't forget, we've got pleny of our own fundies in this country. They've just learned to word their views very carefully and understand that shooting/bombing school children is bad PR.

[Anonymous]

Look at the Amish and Quakerz we have in the US. They have rezisted our way of life since they came here, and I see no end in sight. It iz not that they are perfect by any meanz, just that their religion iz the main driving force in the way they live their livez.

Worldwide, with all the different religionz having their own small sectz of fundamentalistz, just like the Amish and Quakerz of Christianity, we are going to have to someday cast away the notion that we are going to change the world with our warz. There'z more to it than that. They only way to stop a religious fundamentalist from being what hiz religion tellz him that he should be iz to kill him and send him to hiz religion.

I don't have all the answerz in that department. We have a very bad track record in the Middle East dating back to WWI. We, the US and part of western Europe, created Kuwait, so in a way it iz our responsibility for Iraq'z attack of thatt country. We helped the Jewish to create Izrael. The PLO iz our responsibility.

Keep in mind that when we made Izrael, we gave the Jewish some of the Muslim holy landz. We completely disregarded their religion, az if it doezn't exist. In lew of that, we shouldn't be surprized that nobody there iz going to vote Lady Liberty az their homecoming queen.

This iz the history that we have created for the Muzlim fundamentalistz. Then, we have constantly continued to pizz them off over the yearz by attempting to "westernize" their culture. Now that we know we can't westernize them, and their terror attackz reign supreme, where should our finger point?

I'M WRONG SO I'M GOING TO KILL YOU!

Yeah, right. That'z what I thought Bush waz really saying.

Who are the bad guyz? Hussein iz bad, but he iz only one man. He tested weaponz on hiz own country and did some other horrible thingz. Are the other people who hate the United Statez and partz of western Europe for stripping them of partz of their heritage the evil doerz?

However, we have painted ourselvez into a bit of a corner here. We have attacked theze people, bit by bit, until they have no other recourse but to pick the big fight with us. They know they can't win a battle in the field so the bring the fight into our homez and livez, into our very heritagez and culturez. Our only viable counter to the offensive nature of their attackz iz to be offensive once again and kill the very people we have for so many yearz forsaken.

You are a playground bully. One of the kidz you bullied when you were young growz up and iz an expert in karate. He sayz he iz going to cripple you for life for bullying him when he waz young. You can't defend yourself against hiz punchez, so you take a gun and shoot him. Sadly enough, that'z the United States foreign policy in a nutshell.

[GuerillaChiken]

Graceful posted:
We helped the Jewish to create Izrael. The PLO iz our responsibility.

But did we create Hezbollah or Hamas, and even if we did, does that give them the right to avoid military targets and hit pizza restaurants and busses? The Palestinians have had more than one opportunity to take the "moral high ground" and have failed every chance.

This iz the history that we have created for the Muzlim fundamentalistz. Then, we have constantly continued to pizz them off over the yearz by attempting to "westernize" their culture. Now that we know we can't westernize them, and their terror attackz reign supreme, where should our finger point?

One of the things that our supposed Conservative run media seems to leave out is the desire of both the Taliban, Saddam Hussein, and the Wahabi sect to create a Muslim State from Sea to Sea. Graceful, Innocent, and Huntress in a burka...nice. And another thing, in my opinion it is racist to assume that just because someone is of a different color, religion, or "culture" that they don't deserve the God given right to freedom. Even the Koran speaks of it. Arab (not Muslim leaders) have skewed the teachings of Mohammed for their own purposes, to keep their people uneducated and focused on the Great Satan, these the same people that created Algebra (damn them) and the basis of advanced medicines. Democracy is NOT a Western Ideal. Look up the Iroquois Confederacy. Very democratic, more so than "Western" Democracies. It is inherently ethnocentric to think that Us enlightened western peoples invented freedom, and are the purveyors of such. Total horse shiite.

And Muslim fundamentalism has been around since Mohammed saw the Angel in the desert. Result: A wave of Islam across N. Africa into Spain and Southern Italy, and East into Pakistan and Western India.

BAWK!

Guerillas new Creed:
If the cost of peace is Slavery, then Peace is too damn expensive.

[BillyTheChiken]

but I think we are sending the wrong message to the world by policing all the other people'z problemz.

I agree isolationism is a nice thing, but one thing we can't ignore is that the US is the big shit on campus for the time being, and everyone is going to come to us for our help, be it cold cash or hot lead. If you can get China to be the international police, I'm all for it.

And yes I realize nobody requested our help in Iraq, but that's the flip side of it: the initiative is also ours.

So if anyone wants to step up and take our place as the superpower and all that entails, go for it. Personally I wouldn't mind my country being out of the spotlight for a while.

[DirtPoorChiken]

China definately has the man power. They could just threated to send troops until the other side gives up. I seriously doubt that there are more than 2 or 3 countries in the world that have more bullets than China has people....

[PherdnutChiken]

Having religion as a driving force in your life isn't necessarily extremist or fundamentalist. People can leave the Amish fold without fear of serious retribution. In fact, I believe their most serious punishment is to banish people. I don't think there's more than three or four hard core old school quakers left. The rest are all driving old Volvos, buying groceries at the co-op, and listening to NPR a lot. At least my quaker buddies generally followed that norm.

[Anonymous]

What waz that chance to take the moral high ground again? Oh yes, it waz becoming a state of Izrael. If China came in and moved everyone from say Texaz out into the rest of the US and made Texaz a Buddhist area, would you fight it?

[GuerillaChiken]

What waz that chance to take the moral high ground again? Oh yes, it waz becoming a state of Izrael. If China came in and moved everyone from say Texaz out into the rest of the US and made Texaz a Buddhist area, would you fight it?

You lose the moral highground when you convince uneducated young men to walk on to busses and kill unarmed civilians including women and children, the world tends to look past your underdog status when you start doing that. Indian activists, African Americans, and many many other groups have shown that Violent insurrection rarely if ever gets you the rights you deserve. And Israelis didnt' create the state, western powers did, yet it is the Jews they kill. Most of it isn't freedom fighting, its simply anti-semitism. Which is taught to every muslim in the Islamic world. The Somalis I used to work with have never even MET a Jew, yet they are taught to hate them. As long as the Israelis just keep bulldozing settlements and shooting at civilians only after a bombing, then they will always have the favor of the Non-Jew hating world.

[PherdnutChiken]

Pshaw... like China could take Texas. They'd have guys with pickups and all manner of "collectable" firearms at the front lines before the armed forces got there. Let's use Deleware as an example instead... uh.. no.. who cares about Deleware.

I think 'Rilla's just suggesting that maybe blowing up kids isn't the best way to garner support from the international community. I'm pretty disgusted by Israel but having your kids blown to bits by their kids kind of puts a crimper on the progressive types attempt to lend some sanity to the situation.

[Incantation]

actually it was the british that moved everyone out of the area to give to the jews... thats the reason for the conflict... they kinda want the land back and when the brits couldn't handle it anymore like usual US stepped in.

World History 20th Century .... thank you thank you I'll be here all week :crazy:

[PherdnutChiken]

Some those young men and women were actually quite well educated.

[Incantation]

well you dont have to be stupid to be brainwashed just unaware that its happening and your becomming someones pawn... :disgusted:

happens all the time here in US too, peer pressure is a big one hang around with a certain group long enough and after a while you'll be thinking/acting/talking/dressing just like them... the need to fit in can be a powerfull force to resist...

[GuerillaChiken]

It's the damn Brits fault for making the situation and its the rest of the West's for keeping it up. (Weapons provided to Israel include items from France, Britain, US and others)

Exactly Pherd, cept what I meant with the African Americans was the Equal Rights Movement, not release from slavery, which did REQUIRE conflict to resolve, but conflict faught by a third party. The Palestinians could take a lesson from Ghandi or Dr. King Jr. If they were to do this, it would be alot harder for the Israelis to make any kind of belligerent move, especially with the eyes of the world watching. BUT that would require the leaders of the Arab peoples to educate the masses, and that would result in a massive wave of liberalism within the Islamic community. BAD for their leadership.

BAWK!!!

[Fanatic]

Damn, only 14 posts after my previous so far....I want in damnit, but I have principles, so post another 6 as this post does not count!

[PherdnutChiken]

100% agreed. Don't get the impression there's a whole lot of people over there reading about Ghandi. That or it's somehow incomprehensible to them that an evil power like the West would actually be capable of the level of compassion necessary for passive resistance to work. It's this childish, underdeveloped, binary view of the world that makes circumstances so sticky and Georgie's "Access of Evil" rhetoric doesn't exactly help matters.

I do think the US could take greater steps to alleviate the situation, however. Bush pulling out of the talks that Clinton had started is probably one of the most despicable acts of his presidency. Not sure if this was a move made to seperate himself from anything Clinton ever did or if there was some even more asinine reasoning behind it.

Sigh.. wish Kerry wasn't looking so weak.

[BasT]

i agree that killing non-combatants if they be children or not is not right and no offence but if they keep doing that what do the expect to gain? the world will not just say
"hey, another 4more civi kills and we'll come round to your way of thinkin"
I think not, some1 once said to me,there r 2 types of smartness
1. Degree's, and other eduation rewards
2. Common Sense....

They should learn to use the second one,
But of course they were ignorant in Jesus's time and killed em for thinking differently to their religion. Nothing has changed but there weapons. :disgusted:

Ignorance is bliss, then wipe the smile of my face

[AddictChiken]

Keep in mind that when we made Izrael, we gave the Jewish some of the Muslim holy landz.

What, Isreal? If we are going to play "who had it first" with that little strip of land we certainly need to go back a bit further than the cast off dregs of the Ottoman empire.

Isreal is (mostly) ready for a two state solution but Arrafat and his $upporter$ are still comitted to the utter destruction of Isreal.

[shutupandshave]

I really dont want to have to go into this...
I love these discussions but get very "enthused" when partaking.

I just want to say

STOP READING THE TABLOID NEWSPAPERS, AND START READING HISTORY BOOKS.

Dont just read the history books written by the winners, read the history books written by the losers too. They quite often show a WHOLE different perspective on the situation...although it is quite hard for some people to see things from any viewpoints other than their own.

[GuerillaChiken]

Without enthusiasm these types of conversations would suxors.

From what I have read, NOT IN TABLOIDS, is that the conflict in Israel, atleast on the Muslim side is splintered. The Palestinians like any "indigenous" people just want to live as equals. (That is ofcourse the line that they release) it is the other groups, Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and Hezbollah, that want the destruction of Israel, along with the entire Wahabi sect, intelligence divisions of Syria and Iran, and other less known groups. These groups have also proven to care very little for the well being of the Palestinians. It is not Syrians/Iranians/Jordanians/Egyptians blowing themselves up, it is the Palestinians, while these other groups take all the glory for them.

Unfortunately SUAS, as most of this talk is about very recent history, very few worthwhile books have been written. And as for your suggestion as for reading the "losers" books, they are often as as skewed as the "winners", and since events in history very rarely have only two sides, it is better to read a book written by some one willing to research and cite his/her works. Too many journals/books/articles are published today claiming historical fact all the while never citing any sources whatsoever. If you were to read a book written by a Confederate sympathizer after the war, you would get a view that would most likely be down right false and spun to make the South look like honorable rebels fighting for their "rights." When it was their "right'' to enslave a Africans that they were fighting for.

[Anonymous]

That would be "Axis of Evil" in which Bush iz uzing rhetoric to try to tie our current conflict to WWII'z feeling of being right.

[DirtPoorChiken]

If Isaac and Ismael just could have been chums.... :banging:

[zona_nukka-]

Winners write the history books

[CluckerChiken]

I wonder if bush CAN write..
he sure as hell can't speak normally

[crazyjose]

I think the problem with the budget is that americans are too scared, My car was parked in my driveway when some one stole the change out of it, they didnt even take the freakin cd palyer or cds jsut the change in the ashtry, not even the quarters in the bottom tray.

My parents immedately said this is cuz i dont lock my car door enough. I aksed them if they ever got anything stolen from their cars, theri answer was ofcourse yes. my next question was: Was the door locked?

Their answer was yes.

Im trying to wonder if locking the car door keeps people who are really trying to seal something out of your car, or does it maximize break in damage.

I mean i live in a nice city, in a nice neighborhood, stuff is stolen all the time, but there are never any assaults never any burglaries (forced entrance).

Americans get too paralyzed and dont get out enough, the people too scared to leave their home are the problem with the budget.

It does have to realte to the president and government, but in the end, the budget is how much every individual spends.

[DirtPoorChiken]

I disagree. We are not too scared, we are just too lazy.... :beer:

[PherdnutChiken]

Kerry got Iowa and Gephardt quit!

:blob: :band: :blob:

:discussion: :dancing: :drinking:

[zona_nukka-]

I would like Howard Dean to be our next president. His views are almost the same as mine for government

Liberal all the way

[PherdnutChiken]

Kerry might not be loud but I think he's the closest thing we've got to integrity and I would trust him not to be a total dumbass in times of strife and emergency.

[Fanatic]

Politics and 'integrity'?

Seems like his campain worked flawless on you. Remeber that in politics there is no true integrety. Only the manufactured perception of it exists, its kind alike a honest thief, they don't realy exist either!

Fanatic

[crazyjose]

Eh scared and lazy thats the average amerian.

[PherdnutChiken]

I'm too lazy to be scared.

[DukeChiken]

It's really useless to argue if Bush misled us about Iraq's WMD. Iraq is over. He already declared that Martians have WMD and we American has to attack Mars pre-emptively. :rofl:

If you are serious about some facts on Iraq's WMD up to now, spend a few hours to read this:

http://www.ceip.org/files/Publications/IraqSummary.asp

[CluckerChiken]

I heard he now wants to BAN GAY MARRIAGES (gay as in man-man and female-female, not gay as in a stupid marriage between man-female :P )

[Anonymous]

Yes, he wants to ban them. Being half lesbian myself, I think it's stupid. Being the other half religious, I think it's ok. Being 99.9% evil, I just don't care. :D

[Z-Chiken]

Which half of you would be lesbian innocent, the top or the bottom? Or maybe just around the middle?

Politics to sex. This thread is getting out of the slums :D

[Snake-Chiken]

20 January 2004 Bush facts


232: Number of American combat deaths in Iraq between May 2003 and January 2004

501: Number of American servicemen to die in Iraq from the beginning of the war - so far

0: Number of American combat deaths in Germany after the Nazi surrender to the Allies in May 1945

0: Number of coffins of dead soldiers returning home from Iraq that the Bush administration has allowed to be photographed

0: Number of funerals or memorials that President Bush has attended for soldiers killed in Iraq

100: Number of fund-raisers attended by Bush or Vice-President Dick Cheney in 2003

13: Number of meetings between Bush and Tony Blair since he became President

10 million: Estimated number of people worldwide who took to the streets in opposition to the invasion of Iraq, setting an all-time record for simultaneous protest

2: Number of nations that Bush has attacked and taken over since coming into the White House

9.2: Average number of American soldiers wounded in Iraq each day since the invasion in March last year

1.6: Average number of American soldiers killed in Iraq per day since hostilities began

16,000: Approximate number of Iraqis killed since the start of war

10,000: Approximate number of Iraqi civilians killed since the beginning of the conflict

$100 billion: Estimated cost of the war in Iraq to American citizens by the end of 2003

$13 billion: Amount other countries have committed towards rebuilding Iraq (much of it in loans) as of 24 October

36%: Increase in the number of desertions from the US army since 1999

92%: Percentage of Iraq's urban areas that had access to drinkable water a year ago

60%: Percentage of Iraq's urban areas that have access to drinkable water today

32%: Percentage of the bombs dropped on Iraq this year that were not precision-guided

1983: The year in which Donald Rumsfeld gave Saddam Hussein a pair of golden spurs

45%: Percentage of Americans who believed in early March 2003 that Saddam Hussein was involved in the 11 September attacks on the US

$127 billion: Amount of US budget surplus in the year that Bush became President in 2001

$374 billion: Amount of US budget deficit in the fiscal year for 2003

1st: This year's deficit is on course to be the biggest in United States history

$1.58 billion: Average amount by which the US national debt increases each day

$23,920: Amount of each US citizen's share of the national debt as of 19 January 2004

1st: The record for the most bankruptcies filed in a single year (1.57 million) was set in 2002

10: Number of solo press conferences that Bush has held since beginning his term. His father had managed 61 at this point in his administration, and Bill Clinton 33

1st: Rank of the US worldwide in terms of greenhouse gas emissions per capita

$113 million: Total sum raised by the Bush-Cheney 2000 campaign, setting a record in American electoral history

$130 million: Amount raised for Bush's re-election campaign so far

$200m: Amount that the Bush-Cheney campaign is expected to raise in 2004

$40m: Amount that Howard Dean, the top fund-raiser among the nine Democratic presidential hopefuls, amassed in 2003

28: Number of days holiday that Bush took last August, the second longest holiday of any president in US history (Recordholder: Richard Nixon)

13: Number of vacation days the average American worker receives each year

3: Number of children convicted of capital offences executed in the US in 2002. America is only country openly to acknowledge executing children

1st: As Governor of Texas, George Bush executed more prisoners (152) than any governor in modern US history

2.4 million: Number of Americans who have lost their jobs during the three years of the Bush administration

221,000: Number of jobs per month created since Bush's tax cuts took effect. He promised the measure would add 306,000

1,000: Number of new jobs created in the entire country in December. Analysts had expected a gain of 130,000

1st: This administration is on its way to becoming the first since 1929 (Herbert Hoover) to preside over an overall loss of jobs during its complete term in office

9 million: Number of US workers unemployed in September 2003

80%: Percentage of the Iraqi workforce now unemployed

55%: Percentage of the Iraqi workforce unemployed before the war

43.6 million: Number of Americans without health insurance in 2002

130: Number of countries (out of total of 191 recognised by the United Nations) with an American military presence

40%: Percentage of the world's military spending for which the US is responsible

$10.9 million: Average wealth of the members of Bush's original 16-person cabinet

88%: Percentage of American citizens who will save less than $100 on their 2006 federal taxes as a result of 2003 cut in capital gains and dividends taxes

$42,000: Average savings members of Bush's cabinet are expected to enjoy this year as a result in the cuts in capital gains and dividends taxes

$42,228: Median household income in the US in 2001

$116,000: Amount Vice-President Cheney is expected to save each year in taxes

44%: Percentage of Americans who believe the President's economic growth plan will mostly benefit the wealthy

700: Number of people from around the world the US has incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba

1st: George W Bush became the first American president to ignore the Geneva Conventions by refusing to allow inspectors access to US-held prisoners of war

+6%: Percentage change since 2001 in the number of US families in poverty

1951: Last year in which a quarterly rise in US military spending was greater than the one the previous spring

54%: Percentage of US citizens who believe Bush was legitimately elected to his post

1st: First president to execute a federal prisoner in the past 40 years. Executions are typically ordered by separate states and not at federal level

9: Number of members of Bush's defence policy board who also sit on the corporate board of, or advise, at least one defence contractor

35: Number of countries to which US has suspended military assistance after they failed to sign agreements giving Americans immunity from prosecution before the International Criminal Court

$300 million: Amount cut from the federal programme that provides subsidies to poor families so they can heat their homes

$1 billion: Amount of new US military aid promised Israel in April 2003 to offset the "burdens" of the US war on Iraq

58 million: Number of acres of public lands Bush has opened to road building, logging and drilling

200: Number of public-health and environmental laws Bush has attempted to downgrade or weaken

29,000: Number of American troops - which is close to the total of a whole army division - to have either been killed, wounded, injured or become so ill as to require evacuation from Iraq, according to the Pentagon

90%: Percentage of American citizens who said they approved of the way George Bush was handling his job as president when asked on 26 September, 2001

53%: Percentage of American citizens who approved of the way Bush was handling his job as president when asked on 16 January, 2004

Sources: Vanity Fair magazine, Harper's Index, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, US Army (Washington), US Department of Defence, Iraqbodycount.net, Citizens for Tax Justice, Bureau of Economic Analysis (Washington), New York Times/CBS News Poll (NYC), US Department of Commerce, Cap Gemini Ernst & Young (NYC), Coalition Provisional Authority (Baghdad), World Health Organisation (Geneva), Office of Management and Budget (Washington), Centre for Responsive Politics (Washington), Bush-Cheney '04, Inc (Arlington, Va), Election Systems & Software (Omaha), United States Central Command (Tampa)

[GuerillaChiken]

Whenever an institution includes "international peace" it usually infers that they are involved in Communist or Socialist dealings, so ofcours they would publish that tripe. Speaking of the Carnegie post.

As for that document that Duke linked I read bout 1/4 of it, and what I gleaned from most of it was statements and contradictions to those statements. But that is not the point...

I will conceded that Bush used the WMD issue to force the war, as the average american is too dumb to be afraid of anything else. But saying that the war was not justified is trash. Saddam was in violation of many many UN resolutions, that the current UN was unwillling to enforce. Oh but wait it wasn't the whole UN was it? It was the permanent members of the Security council, France and Russia wasn't it? Oh and why did they oppose it? Hmm was it because they are more enlightened or their leaders are more intelligent like Clucker likes to point out....NOPE, it is because both countries had tremendous investments regarding oil deals that would go through after sanctions were lifted. ELF was the Frog company, and I think the Russkie one was a state owned one.

You see... I was one of those people that laughed when people said, "oh its about humanitarianism" :disgusted: and when Libs would say, "Oh its just about oil" I would be flabbergasted that a liberal could be so insightful.

So what if its about oil, the European opposition was based on the same desire, EXCEPT they were willing to keep a murderous dictator in power to keep their coffers full of cash.

snake had some extraordinary statistics there, its easy to tell which ones are accurate and which ones are just to make a political point.

I will try to cover the best ones...

2: Number of nations that Bush has attacked and taken over since coming into the White House

Lets not forget that the Taliban in Afghanistan was housing the group that attacked us on Sept. 11, a group that had been attacked by Europes US prez, Clinton multiple times. Iraq was in violation of UN Resolution 1441 by kicking out inspectors in '98, five years after Clinton failed to uphold his responsibility as a SecCouncil member.

32%: Percentage of the bombs dropped on Iraq this year that were not precision-guided

I'm sorry...do they all have to be precision guided? I didn't know that, lemme get out my book o war and find that rule. I think that percentage is LOW. Such a LOW percentage shows that we did care about collateral damage, b/c "smart bombs" are damn expensive.

1983: The year in which Donald Rumsfeld gave Saddam Hussein a pair of golden spurs

taken out of context, as it is presented, makes it sound horrible that we courted this fellow. Taken in context it doesn't seem so horrible. Iran was gauged as the worse of two evils during that time, as their form of fanaticism was incredibly violent. Foreign policy is difficult to understand for some liberals, so I will elaborate further. During this time we were also giving weapons to the iranians, so what we were really doing was playing the two off of each other...THAT seems much more devious than giving a man some spurs.

45%: Percentage of Americans who believed in early March 2003 that Saddam Hussein was involved in the 11 September attacks on the US

Irrelevant, invasion was not solely for this reason as stated above.



$127 billion: Amount of US budget surplus in the year that Bush became President in 2001

$374 billion: Amount of US budget deficit in the fiscal year for 2003

1st: This year's deficit is on course to be the biggest in United States history

Man, when was it possible to get a war at the "Dollar Store" War may be cheap where you come from, but its damn expensive in the real world. I wasn't aware that we got a discount on PanAm to send our troops overseas, maybe I should see if I can get a piece of that action.. sign me up recruiter!

1st: The record for the most bankruptcies filed in a single year (1.57 million) was set in 2002

Only a space cadet would be surprised about this. Hello! Four airliners crashed in the same day, travel was down, WAY DOWN. How many industries are associated with business travel and tourism? Car rentals, hotels, airlines, condoms, come on people, did you think that the Sept 11 wouldn't have an effect?

Bah can I go on? YES!

10: Number of solo press conferences that Bush has held since beginning his term. His father had managed 61 at this point in his administration, and Bill Clinton 33

It is agreed even by those in the media, that the media is more hostile toward this president than any in recent memory. The media wants more info, so why not put this crap statistic in there. Also not mentioned here, there have been less media leaks under this president...oooh I bet Vanity Fair hates that. Bill Clintons admin prolly had the most, but the media loved him you would never see that statistic.

Ok last one till later....

130: Number of countries (out of total of 191 recognised by the United Nations) with an American military presence

40%: Percentage of the world's military spending for which the US is responsible

Hello! SuperPower! I like that "Military Presence." I bet if you eliminate the one or two man teams of advisors, military ataches, and lets not forget the Marine Contingent that are stationed at Embassies, that number would fall to a much more "acceptable" number.

BAWK!!

Go on keep hatin the US... Go on...

Enjoy

[Fanatic]

Funny to see two camps defend only against the arguments they can defend themselfs against and then add some more of their own. This results to sane argumentation to get stuffed below the carpet, soon to be forgotten in the heat of (counter-)accusations. Exactly the arguments are the most valuable and should not be forgotten. Sometimes it is better to listen well, then to talk a lot to get heared.

My addition to this thread is that there is a lot of 'turn ya back on the US going on', and for some good reasons. Unless the US tries to realy understand why people feel and react this way, they will not get far by any means nor cost. The world does not hate the US, and they do accept a lot given the situation, but they do certainly feel disrespected and disregarded by arrogance displayed on many occations. Superpower or not, you just cannot do that and get away with it unharmed. The US needs the world just as much as the world needs the US!

But thats the way these kind of discussions evolve, I guess...

[Snake-Chiken]

Yeah seen it on another forum. THpught you guys would like it hehe

It is good reading and I agree with your point on airline travel being down.
But.......
I see your point on the Sep 11 thing with air travel but Air travel is back up and your economy should have grown with its steady growth again but it hasnt. Not even a bit.

I belive its more a trade issue as Bush sort of went to war on Europe over trade a while back and it hurt him more and he back tracked over his steel enbargo because of it.

I think the worst is over and the markets will stablise over the next year or so.

[Anonymous]

Just to clarify this Guerilla, you brought up some points that do deserve some discussion.

Namely, the way we played Iran and Iraq off against one another was illegal to us. Reagan had no right to do that without the approval of the House of Representatives, who control the pocketbook of the nation.

If you do wish to draw a hard line in the sand and say that what is best for Americans should rule the world, then stop the wars. The few who died on 11 September do not outweigh the needs of the many. The few thousand dead does not compare to our losses in the conflict in Afghanistan alone.

That's the fallacy in all the current conservative arguments. We are striking back to avenge the few and losing the many in the process. However, it's like a frog. If you drop a frog in a pot of boiling water it will jump out. If you put a frog in a pot of water and then heat it to boiling it won't. Spreading the death toll for US soldiers out over several months means that we are heating the water slowly.

Do you feel froggy yet?

Did Clinton fail to meet his Security Council obligations? Too bad. As Snake pointed out in his post, Bush ignored the Geneva Convention. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Aren't most conservatives religious? I figured you would know that example from the Bible.

The unemployment numbers are terribly askew. Let's remember that calling up the reserves freed a lot of temporary positions for unemployed people to fill. When the reserves return home there will be a huge spike in the unemployment rate.

With the way you are defending the idiot, I have to think you must either be rich or having sex with him. If it's the first, you wouldn't mind floating me a loan would you?

[Snake-Chiken]

GuerillaChiken your being very defence mate about my post and counter attacking it but it is true. Hes a link

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=482947


By the way I dont hate the Us as you are leading people to belive. After all im Irish and I have family over there. Lots of them lol.


Anyhow just to clear things up. Its bush I dont like, even Nixon was better than him, in fact anybody else but him he is a time bomb waiting to go off and create a world war. ANyhow heres some reasons people dont like him. Got this from another forum but here it is as its quite funny


Vote for President Bush and Republican Senators and Congressmen if:

1. You think $900/month ($10,800/year) is a fair price for a health insurance policy.

2. You believe drug companies should prevent you from buying Canadian drugs at half price.

3. You are a senior citizen and you think you are about to receive all your medication for free because President Bush has passed the “prescription drugs for seniors under Medicare” legislation.

4. You think large tax breaks for CEO’s making over $50 million are good, but your own CEO may have to cut the company budget and eliminate your position.

5. You never work or get paid for overtime so you don’t care about the recent Bush bill that will eliminate overtime pay for 8 million workers. You don’t know any of the 9 million unemployed U.S. and don’t know anyone in Iraq.

6. Your state has a budget deficit of $2 billion but we should spend $600 billion in Iraq.

7. You know Iraq has more oil than any other country in the world, but no one knows where it ends up after it comes out of the ground or who got the money for it.

8. You would like to see us attack Syria, Iran, and North Korea and Cuba at a cost of $1 trillion, because they are bad and are trying to get us and we better get them first. These rogue countries are sneaky and have tens of thousands of nuclear missiles and weapons of mass destruction pointed at us. You don’t know how much $1 trillion is. (Answer: It’s $1,000,000,000,000 or a million million dollars. $1 trillion dollars could pay for 25 million jobs that would pay $40,000 for a year. $1 trillion could employ all of the 9 million unemployed for the next three years. The United States could probably purchase peacefully all of North Korea for $1 trillion dollars.)

9. You are a woman and want abortion made illegal, and want women imprisoned for obtaining one, to teach them a lesson. You can afford to travel to Sweden.

10. You are a man and want to make sure that women having abortions is illegal, and that the men (also known at the “fathers” who impregnate the women are completely and totally blameless if such a crime is committed.

11. You like Pat Robertson, the TV evangelist. You send him contributions and you pray with him for the “passing” of three Supreme Court Justices.

12. You are 100% for the death penalty and its OK if a few hundred people get executed when they were actually totally innocent. It’s the price we have to pay.

13. You think that 2 million people in jail is normal and we need to lock up even more people. You think we have won the war on drugs because no one ever talks about it anymore.

14. You think $15,000 to $30,000 a year to send your child away to college is just fine and it’s a good buy.

15. You are a doctor and want doctors to be imprisoned for accidentally or purposely causing an abortion.

16. You are a doctor and like spending more time with insurance paper work, pharmaceutical sales reps, your office personnel, your lawyer, phone calls to insurance reps and drug stores, and you find your patients too time consuming and annoying.

17. You are planning to move to China or India and want a job with an American company there. (Working for 35 cents an hour with no benefits).

18. You never visited a National Park (Yellowstone, Yosemite, the White Mountains) and don’t care about them. They look fine on the postcards you get from friends.

19. You are a teacher and think that our educational system is tops in the world.

20. Your town just rejected spending increases of $5 million for additional teachers and much needed reconstruction of the school buildings, and it’s closing a local medical clinic but you think it’s a good idea for President Bush to give $50 billion to a few warring countries in Africa that are in total chaos, so they can build schools, hire teachers, open clinics, and then destroy them as they continue to kill each other in never ending civil wars.

21. You keep getting Liberia mixed up with Lebanon so you don’t really care who gets the $15 billion Bush earmarked of one of those countries.

22. You like paying $2.00 a gallon for gas because Exxon/Mobil must be hurting.

23. You don’t mind transferring your computer technology skills to serving coffee in Dunkin’ Donuts for $6.00 an hour with no health insurance.

24. You think Saddam Hussein attacked the World Trade Center and can’t remember who Osama bin Laden is. You forgot who had the weapons of mass destruction; us or them.

25. You believe that 40 million people without health insurance isn’t all that bad. You think that the solution is that they just better not get sick.

26. You think that your company enjoys paying most of your health premiums and they probably have never thought about eliminating your position.

27. You don’t know what the Homeland Security Department does, how much it costs your State Government, and you can’t name all the colors on the color-coded alert chart.

28. You don’t live in the Northeast so the electrical blackout didn’t affect you but you think we should spend $18 billion on the electrical grid in Iraq.

29. You think the 150,000 American troops are having fun in Iraq and we should send more to protect the Iraqi’s from the Iraqi’s.

30. You think President Bush and the Republican Party deserves contributions from the pharmaceutical and health insurance industry and you don’t mind paying $200 for a bottle of prescription drugs.

31. You like seeing constant TV commercials for powerful, potentially dangerous prescription drugs because if you didn’t you wouldn’t know you were so sick and your doctor wouldn’t tell you about the drugs without you asking him.

32. You like President Bush’s tough talk and get a kick out of the expressions “we’re gonna smoke ‘em out and bring ‘em ta justice”; “we’re gonna get ‘em dead or alive”; “bring ‘em (the terrorists) on”; and “we’re gonna get ‘dem folks who knocked down da buildings”, and you think this eloquent speaking, (prepared and reviewed by 100 Presidential speechwriters) enhances our stature in the world.

33. You like to see President Bush getting off the shiny green helicopter with his two dogs and he always smiles and waves and holds hands with his wife and that seems nice.

34. Your main source of information is the Nightly News where you hear 20 minutes of short sound bites from any one Presidential candidate speaking for 15 seconds on the $600 billion being spent on Iraq, intermingled with 15 commercials for pharmaceutical products that “speak” for 30 seconds each. You especially like the chemotherapy and rheumatoid arthriti commercials that show healthy people walking their dogs on beautiful green grass with beautiful sunsets with soothing music; and the commercials where people have been cured of their diarrehea and constipation and can get to work on time.

35. You voted for Bush’s father when he won and you voted for Bush’s father when he lost. And you voted for this current President Bush when he lost, but then you found out he won because of something in Florida. And it’s easy to remember the name Bush, so you might as well vote for him again.

36. You live in Florida and it doesn’t matter so “let the chips (or the chads) fall where they may”.

Anyhow I just thought Id put some spice into this topic. HAppy flamming!!!!

[Anonymous]

All that I have to say is that I don't have one "bush" so why have the other? ROFLMAO

[Snake-Chiken]

:pics:

[DruidChiken]

By the way I dont hate the Us as you are leading people to belive. After all im Irish and I have family over there. Lots of them lol.

There are more people of Irish decent in Birmingham, West Midlands than there are in all of the Emerald Isle......
So just image how many there are over in the Colony across the pond :P

[GuerillaChiken]

Graceful speaking out her ass:
If you do wish to draw a hard line in the sand and say that what is best for Americans should rule the world, then stop the wars. The few who died on 11 September do not outweigh the needs of the many. The few thousand dead does not compare to our losses in the conflict in Afghanistan alone.

I never said what is best for America is best for the world. How in the world is sending troops across the globe good for a country?
OK, and if I were to think in the same train of logic, America should have never gotten involved in World War 2 right, I mean according to your numbers, only a "few" died at Pearl Harbor, and there fore no response was needed. A better argument, atleast a smarter one, would be to say that the death of Afghani civilians out weighs the death of our civilians, that would make sense. But Graceful, I ask you this: Who should decide how to defend our country? Should it be America, or should it be the European community, or perhaps the rest of the International community? None of these are innocent in their actions ever, so that leaves it to us not to people who don't necessarily have a vested interest.

Snake I'm not saying what you said isn't true, I'm sure it is, but hopefully you can understand what I am talking about. The media is a beast. Fox is a Bush Cheerleader, CNN is the opposite, much the same spectrum in Europe with Sky and BBC. Each side will spin the story in a way that fits their own agenda. The fact that these media outlets have an agenda is a testament to how fooked up the system is in this country, and Europe.

If I took the time I could put together a list similar to that about every leader of every nation in the world, and I promise 75% of those countries would make Bush look like a Cherub, let alone a responsible leader. I could put a similar list up about Clinton if I felt the need to, but most of you would prolly be blinded by your love for the man.

[Anonymous]

Guerilla, you've missed the point again! The point is that your reasoning is completely circular, as is most of the conservative propoganda that's been going around.

War was declared on us during WWII by nations that threatened embargoes of our goods and services. Japan officially declared war on us just after the attack on Pearl Harbor and we responded the next day. Because they were allies of Germany and Italy, we were obliged to join that fight as well.

Comparing that to 11 September is not remotely logical. We responded with returned declarations of war on those countries. Afghanistan and Iraq did not declare war on us. We did declare war on them first. Apples and oranges, just like the rest of your flawed reasoning.

Roosevelt was a liberal by the very definition of the word. He held out the military force as long as possible, even after attacks were made on merchant ships with US trade goods. To compare him with Bush, who would declare war if a barnicle landed on his rowboat, is not feasible.

Roosevelt bettered the conditions for the working man, instituted government reforms and put people to work. Bush lowered taxes for the wealthy and screwed the economy even before 11 September. Bush's main calling card is his educational reforms, which were done illegally. They are requirements that were made without funding to back them up. Why? All the money we don't have is already being spent on everyone else's educational systems.

You are barking up the wrong tree with that comparison Guerilla. Those two are in no way comparable. "You, sir, are no Jack Kennedy."

Give me some more rhetoric, please. While you are at it, come up with a list for Clinton, I just love seeing lists that don't include joblessness.

[Snake-Chiken]

I was not a big fan of Clinton myself and I understand what your saying but.........

I am curious why is it you like Bush? What has he done to make the USA better. I am just curious

[Fanatic]

BAWK!

Did I just said something none understood, or did you all just proved my point?

Fanatic

[zona_nukka-]

My head is going to explode

[PherdnutChiken]

Head exploding is but the first step in the path to becoming Chiken.

[Z-Chiken]

I liked clinton because we both share an affinity for ora.... err, nevermind.

[GuerillaChiken]

Snake wrote:
am curious why is it you like Bush? What has he done to make the USA better. I am just curious

There hasn't been a president that I have ever liked really, cept for maybe Abe Lincoln. So there really hasn't been one in my life time.
I defend Bush b/c you guys are so hell bent on attacking him. If you guys attacked Slick willy I would prolly defend him to. I didn't even vote for Dubya, I voted for the Libertarian Candidate.

Grace again from the brown eye:
War was declared on us during WWII by nations that threatened embargoes of our goods and services. Japan officially declared war on us just after the attack on Pearl Harbor and we responded the next day. Because they were allies of Germany and Italy, we were obliged to join that fight as well.

Um, so we HAD to send forces against Japan then right? We HAD to send our boys against fortress Europe? We could have just said oh well, take your war and shove it Hirohito, Adolf, and Benny. But we did send forces didnt we. So why? Why did American soldiers have to die on far away shores? Because someone declared war on us? so if Luxembourg declared war we would have to send forces? Insult my logic? OK still in your thinking...lala land...aka liberal land...any country could attack us, kill thousands of americans and as long as they don't declare war...its ok, we just let them hide from prosecution... Wow what a wonderful world. I don't think FDR would agree with you.

The day that America can be attacked and there is no response allowed, I will move to Mars. Perhaps then I will have an idea of how you people think.


Graceful cant' use her mouth so she continues to speak out her ass:
Roosevelt was a liberal by the very definition of the word. He held out the military force as long as possible, even after attacks were made on merchant ships with US trade goods. To compare him with Bush, who would declare war if a barnicle landed on his rowboat, is not feasible.

Roosevelt bettered the conditions for the working man, instituted government reforms and put people to work. Bush lowered taxes for the wealthy and screwed the economy even before 11 September. Bush's main calling card is his educational reforms, which were done illegally. They are requirements that were made without funding to back them up. Why? All the money we don't have is already being spent on everyone else's educational systems

Guess they skipped the Depression in your history class. Roosevelt was NOT a great president b/c what he accomplished after the Depression, things had no place to go but up. and when did I ever compare FDR to Bush? No way. So bringing up his economic intiatives in comparison is irrelevant. No post WWII Prez will be able to compare with FDR. Once again you are pulling stuff out of thin air. When it is all said and done, Dubya will be a mediocre president, I have no doubt about that, just like his father.

FDR would not be considered a Liberal today, but you are right he was Liberal for his time. But if simply having the government expand and creating a welfare system no a grand scale, then Otto von Bismark of Germany would be considered a "liberal." The same guy who united Germany through Blood and Iron in the 19th Century.

And if I am not mistaken...FDR went in front of Congress and asked for a Declaration of War against the Empire of Japan. Did he have to do that? And even if merchant ships were attacked, it wasn't unprovoked was it since they carried goods to Britain. So there fore they deserved it and we still shouldn't have responded.

It seems more and more that you, Graceful, don't pull your opinion from intellect or logic, but simply from a Rabid liberal ideal base. If a Republican came out in favor of every thing you liked you wouldn't like him cuz he isnt a Demoncat. But heres a shocker for ya...if I were to take a quiz I would be a liberal OMG! And most of my ideals are liberal, OMG! But I have been playing off your blind rage over support for your beloved Liberals. FDR would probably not be a Democrat today, as he most likely wouldn't have supported abortion, gay marriage, affirmative action, or even integration. Remember that FDR had the power to integrate the military yet he didn't. In FDR's military, German POWs officers had more rights than Black American Soldiers. Wow....so liberal.

[GuerillaChiken]

Clucker wrote:
I heard he now wants to BAN GAY MARRIAGES (gay as in man-man and female-female, not gay as in a stupid marriage between man-female )


To clarify this since nobody else is joining me as devil's advocate, Bush is going to possibly try to put an Act, DOMA (Defense of Marraige Act), into law, if state/local judges continue to act "arbitrarily" (spelling is horrid sorry, but it is Bush quote :-P) This act was passed not by a Republican President, but by Pres. Clinton. This act states that the union of two people of the same sex is not a marriage, more or less.

Now since all of you probably think I am right wing nut job, I will say that this proposal by Dubya is as horrible afront to what this country stands for as what Slick Willy made an act originally.

How does this fit into politics now. It has set off a horrible chain of events. Ohio just passed a law banning Gay marriage and benefits that should be due to married couples. Other states, that haven't already made a decision, are in the process of moving, and most of them will probably move in a similar fashion as Ohio, regardless of the political alignment.

I don't hate liberals or conservatives, I hate politicians, goddamned bigots.