An open question to the Chikens and Moderators

[Martyr]

Following the move of the maddox related post, I decided to post this request for clarification.

The post was moved, firstly, for being "emotionally charged". What does that mean?

AFAIK, maddox writing reminds Innocent of an ex who was abusive. I am sure we all agree that it is intolerable for a man to abuse another woman ( or man for that matter) with unjust or no cause.

Does this justify the moving of a post?

maddox writes against women, goths, old people, mimes and hippies etc etc. I can honestly say that I have never read or saw eveidence of his writing inspiring others to carry violence against these groups.

has anyone read in the papers or seen in the news "maddox page leads to an increase of violence against mimes"? or "500% increase of old people being shot into the sun"?

maddox writes a page that is intended to be close to the knuckle. It is also intended as a humourous page. Lets all be agreed that there is nothing created to date that EVERYONE finds funny. Does this mean that the page needs to be moderated? Does this mean we will see a rise of pages being moved to Cloud 9 because someone gets offended?

Let us know what we can post. Perhaps you can create a set of guidelines that will let us know which subjects are acceptable and which topics are taboo. Furthermore, we will need to have a complaints page. Perhaps there is something I find offensive and I would like it removed. Do I just need to say " I am offended and I wish this to be removed" and it will be done?

I think that Innocent has over reacted to the nth degree here. I think its going to make posting of newsworthy items in this site a constant landmine. For instance, if there was an article of interest regarding the death penalty in the USA...how can I comment unless I know that no one has had a relative killed by the death penalty?

A precedent is being set here which is dangerous. if moderators get to move posts because the writing in the LINK, not even the post itself, reminds them of someone they used to date - then everyone who posts here is on shaky ground. maddox is not that guy. We should be able to decide for ourselves if a link is suitable and not be TOLD by those who think they know better.

I dont believe Moocher would have asked for the post to be deleted if people had just been left to their own devices and allowed to decide for themselves.

Finally...how come no one took exception to this? http://pub76.ezboard.com/fthedilemmaboardfrm11.showMessage?topicID=249.topi c

Martyr

[DysedChiken]

Martyr,

I don't know anything about the post in question. I can assure you from personal experience as both a past council member and a moderator. The moving of posts is not done without a certain amount of thought within the group.

I am certain that no one here would just out of hand decide to move or delete a post unless it was demeaning, defamatory or abusive. Generally speaking posts are "locked" as a first line. If its of such an extreme nature that it can not be tolerated or its going to degrade in an all out flame war.....its killed before it starts.

I am not offering you an explanation for my clan mates actions I am only offering the insight to understand that we reserve the right to monitor and maintain our board in a manor which allows us to enjoy our boards.

Generally speaking before posts are moved, locked or deleted there is another post somewhere within our secure areas requesting the post be done in.

Bear in mind our children (children of Chikens) use this board as well and something that might be offensive to children is cut from our public areas. I suspect that from your post something of a personal issue was struck here that Innocent a personal chord. If it did then I would support her in having the post killed or moved not only because she is a woman but because she is my friend and I respect her.

A debate over the death penalty hardly qualifies for a sensorship issue here. Its an emotionally charged issue granted but as long as it doesn't degrade to a flame war then I see no problem with it.

Finally, understand that here in Chiken we are a group of gamers based in fun for the most part. Yea we flame and cuss and carry on just like any other clan. We reserve the right however to maintain our boards in the best interests or our membership. It may clash your sensibilities but it is our right to choose.

Dysed

[Snake-Chiken]

" It may clash your sensibilities but it is our right to choose."

Can you expand on this please. blaw never mind i think i have said all i need to say on this subject.

[DruidChiken]

There is a time and a place for this type of toilet humour, and if it causes offence to a section of our members or visitors then i am against it.

Innocent moved the post to put a lid on things before they got out of hand and too abusive.

I support Innocent in her actions.



Druid

[Martyr]

Dysed,

I completely understand your point of view. I too was also a council member and moderator for the CC ( AngelChiken)

You are right in everything you say. These are your boards and you reserve the right to post, lock, edit etc etc whatever you please.

What I find confusing is this. Innocent had no problems or issues on the ezboard forum in relation to posting racy pictures which, imho, would certainly not have been classed as reading for the children of the members who post on these boards.

The problem as I see it is - where do you draw the line? Innocent removed, and essentially, deleted a thread. If this was done because a link is demeaning, defamatory or abusive..thats fine. Where do you draw the line on this? Say, for instance, Nemesis came on and stated " I find that thread from Martyr offensive and demeaning and I want it removed", then Addict comes on and says " there is a post here that offends me and i want it moved"...are you going to end up with a board that people are loathe to post on?

The maddox post was a link. Dont like maddox? Dont click it. more people find it funny than offensive...so why not let the majority ( I assume this is still a democratic group) decide on this?

Although, after all is said and done, you are right, Dysed. they are your boards and you can do as you see fit since they belong to you. I was merely trying to highlight the eventual road of severe censorship if every post has potential to offend someone else.

Martyr

[DysedChiken]

Look Martyr, as a former Chiken you should know how this system works better than anyone. Majority of vote...or council descision.

Simple system to me.

How many times did you read requests to lock or move threads in our boards?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Simply stated it comes down to if a thread is requested to be locked or closed a moderator is to ask before deletion. In this case I beleive honestly that Innocent followed the rough guidelines we use here to do things. You should also know that majority rules. If she even posted it in council or asked council through MSN or any other means then I beleive she did the right thing (please see Druid's post) I am certain she would have the entire support of council in which case she has every right to moderate.

With respect to racey pictures. Lets be clear....I have seen far worse in my Sears Christmas catalogue. Sheeesh come on there is being a prude and then being an absolute prude. She doesn't show any body parts and frankly she has not shown women in a derogatory or degrading light. If she is comfortable with her portrayal of things then why shouldn't she be allowed to express her own sense of flair?

Frankly I know of one siggy a Chiken conjured up many moons ago that he requested be reviewed before he used it.....majority said to him "ummmm bud you showing a sexual action" that is by far worse than a lingerie shot.

Nevermind, the fact that I don't know a kid that hasn't seen
mommy in her knickers.

Lastly, be serious, this was not just a flagrant effort on the part of Chiken at sensorship. I have been a Chicken for what feels like a century now and with the exception of one Moderator gone haywire the system has worked and allowed for our growth and freindships to build.

Maybe we should post guidelines but truth is you are a person of good moral thought and character......post what you like but if the majority of Council or the population doesn't like it then the thread will be editted, locked and we all move on.

Sorry man, I fail to see what you are saying here considering your intimate knowledge of how things have worked here for so long.

Dysed

[Martyr]

Dysed,

You Sir, are a skilled and wonderful writer and it is hard to argue with your post :)

I am not purposely trying to pick a fight with you...moreso I enjoy the debate, if it encourages us to think and see a different point of view.

I never read or had to act on a post during the 1.5 (approx) terms I stood as a Council member. There was a post which was locked (Octothorpe) and that was the entire history of lockage I have seen in my time here.

The point I am trying to make, albeit badly, is What are the guidelines for moderation here? It was never truly defined while I was on the Council..frankly it never came up during my time there.
Lets look at a "for instance"

Say I complained to The Council, "I am deeply offended by Dysed using the tag *Resident Chiken Wanker*. I think it is a poor word to be teaching the Children that come here, and I personally, am offended by this"

Does this give the Council the right to change your tag without your permission? Does It give them the right to give you a warning? Does it give them the right to ask you to change it - or else?

What I am trying to say is... what offends one individual may not necessarily offend the greater populace. Do you moderate for each persons sensibilities? Do you get peoples threads locked by having some "sway" with the Council members? Or can any Joe Public get a thread locked and hidden if they find it offensive?

Quite frankly, your "Resident Chiken Wanker" does not offend me in the slightest. Lazys signature did not offend me either. Posting racy pictures or links to maddox is no offense whatsoever. I am not prudish by any means.

I think it has become almost taboo here to use a swear word. It is getting to be a walking on eggshells thing to make a post now. If an atmosphere of "Does the post i am about to make here contravene someones sensibilities?" attitude prevails...you will begin to limit the number of posters and number of posts. Worse still, you may create an environment of useless and needless spam posts.

The role of the council, as I know it, is that they are representatives of the majority. When the maddox link was posted in the comic section of Ezboard..no one had a single negative comment to make. Now all of a sudden it is a lockable and a hideable subject? What precipitated this gargantuan leap of extremes?

Again..I concede to the fact that these are YOUR boards and you can do as you all see fit. Personally, I think a little bit of common sense and lassez faire attitude are essential in order for open debate and freedom of speech to be able to prevail.

Just my 2 cents

Martyr

[AddictChiken]

No public forum can possibly be responsible to moral sensibilities since these vary somewhat. I, for instance, recently posted a request that people keep the pics and avatars a bit more "PG." This was a case of moral sensibilities and, it seems, not a hot bed topic.

The issue Innocent complained of is one of ethical sensibilities, e.g. promulgation of abuse. I did not follow the link but her (Innocent's) strong reaction to is tells volumes in and of itself.

I support the council's decision on this issue.

[Snake-Chiken]

After reading the above posts and being in the subject of the previous maddox post. I have to say somthing.

I dont agree with the council decision but i respect it and will go with this decision but there is a downside to this. That being posting on this site. I do think that the whole issue of the maddox this is trully blowen out of proportion because it reminded the gal of a fella she knew.. this brings of a question of ethics ... say some one reminded her of him on this forum...does that mean they get banned/moved/edited? I mean by writing a post or whatever, not by direct referance. if thats the case then this whole subject has went from a casual posy to a real problem.

This is all I am going to say on the subject. I have said my thoughts on this. Hope it helps :beer:

By the way its friday !!!! happy weekend! :drunk:

[Fanatic]

BAWK!

Thats what we need....more emoticons promoting continued beer drinking! Let the young ones start very early and get addicted ASAP (and then blame the evil outside world, :)).

Ok, stretching things a bit far here......but that's why this thread exists in the first place. My oppinion is this all happened due to overreacting with respect to a personal experience.

Is this normal pollicy and does it occur often? Hell no, but I can't convict her either. She has been given the right to moderate and her reaction and acting are understandable given her experiences.

This meight seem unfair to some, but I think this is not the case. It would be realy different if she CENSORED just because she did not agree with something or suspected someone else might be offended without consulting that someone or the council first.

It's a subtile difference between 'acting because emotionaly hit by something in the heat of the moment' and 'acting out of knowing whats good for all'. Some freedom in moderating decissions are allowed, simple as that! If given a second posting she problably would react differently (just not click on it).

Fanatic

[LazyChiken]

I have other, way deeper than this whole maddox thing issue...

Let me quote one of my favourite movies: "...something in the air..."

I was thinking about it lately, and I think this strict moderating of harmless maddox thread is just a part of something bigger. What? I dont know. But, it can be felt. Like, maybe you remember my octothorpe comic I posted for review? WIth an ask, if I can post it online? That cartoon was not rude. It was not offensive. It was not bad taste. 2 years ago, I would just post it on some boards, and we all would have a laugh. Now, I felt obliged to ask, if its ok, and if I may, and if I wouldnt offend anyone, and if you would agree, or maybe someone could find my action harmfull... Strange, isnt it? Thing is, I dont feel comfortable anymore when posting here. Maybe I changed. But, it seems, judging by some of the above posts, that I am not the only one. Not the only one feeling rather than seeing a change in our group, which were always based on friendship and accepting each other the way there are. Now, its more like... strict political corectness rules instead of trusting that no one of us would intentionally harm other in any way.

I would like to call a blind blind, and not "sight impaired". We dont need a ruling on everything. A little trust plz?

Two last things: I dont care what Innocent did to maddox thread. If she would say that its harmfull for her, I would be first to not only remove the thread, but also DDOS the guy. Why? Cause I trust her, and accept her the way she is, and I also accept her decisions fully - ony because she's my online friend like you all are. Do this work like this in other cases? I seriously doubt it. I am afraid that the times when we all stood behind Dysed when he managed to flame us out of one of the MW4 leagues are gone. Welcome the times, where we would beg for forgiveness, instead of supporting one of us, who MAYBE made a mistake. But, his personal feelings --> were <-- way more important for me (us) than all this political corectness crap, and any league in the world. Same about mine and Festus conflict. Everyone involved know, how it looked like. A little thought: how it would look now? Different, right? Yeah. Thats what I talk about.

[Snake-Chiken]

Good post lazy and everyone else...

Maybe you agree maybe you dont either way I like this thread!

Now come on dosnt this make this forum a bit more fun?

Maybe its just me :crazy:

[Fanatic]

Hmmm, maybe i wend a bit to theorethical. I can do an absract verse in a single line if anyone cares 4 it :)

[CluckerChiken]

Comic/Humor is a very relative concept.
It differs from person to person and even depends on moods and circumstances.

Therefor we have setup some very straightforward rules for the forums on which the moderators act as they see fit.
I don't think we need to question every action they take just because we might disagree with it.

We are not moderators. we dont have the responsibility to uphold the rules and eventhough we have FEW rules, the ones we DO have should be enforced clearly and without favoring one post/topic/person above another.

That said... i thought it was funny :D

[Martyr]

I was thinking about it lately, and I think this strict moderating of harmless maddox thread is just a part of something bigger. What? I dont know. But, it can be felt. Like, maybe you remember my octothorpe comic I posted for review? WIth an ask, if I can post it online? That cartoon was not rude. It was not offensive. It was not bad taste. 2 years ago, I would just post it on some boards, and we all would have a laugh. Now, I felt obliged to ask, if its ok, and if I may, and if I wouldnt offend anyone, and if you would agree, or maybe someone could find my action harmfull... Strange, isnt it? Thing is, I dont feel comfortable anymore when posting here. Maybe I changed. But, it seems, judging by some of the above posts, that I am not the only one. Not the only one feeling rather than seeing a change in our group, which were always based on friendship and accepting each other the way there are. Now, its more like... strict political corectness rules instead of trusting that no one of us would intentionally harm other in any way.


Lazy, it took me multiple posts and i still did not sum it up as well as you did there. Something HAS changed - and not for the better.

[MoocherChiken]

I was thinking about it lately, and I think this strict moderating of harmless maddox thread is just a part of something bigger. What? I dont know. But, it can be felt. Like, maybe you remember my octothorpe comic I posted for review? WIth an ask, if I can post it online? That cartoon was not rude. It was not offensive. It was not bad taste. 2 years ago, I would just post it on some boards, and we all would have a laugh. Now, I felt obliged to ask, if its ok, and if I may, and if I wouldnt offend anyone, and if you would agree, or maybe someone could find my action harmfull... Strange, isnt it? Thing is, I dont feel comfortable anymore when posting here. Maybe I changed. But, it seems, judging by some of the above posts, that I am not the only one. Not the only one feeling rather than seeing a change in our group, which were always based on friendship and accepting each other the way there are. Now, its more like... strict political corectness rules instead of trusting that no one of us would intentionally harm other in any way.

Lazy, it took me multiple posts and i still did not sum it up as well as you did there. Something HAS changed - and not for the better.
BAWK!

What prompted the move was a request by me (the author of said thread) to delete the topic. Since topics are never deleted here, it was closed and moved. The link to the site I posted provoked a strong reaction from someone that I did not want that strong a reaction from, and that is why I requested that it be deleted (it was moved, but it served the same purpose). If any of you want to discuss why I did that, then please ask me.

What has changed you may ask? I donno. However, I will point you to one person's sincere comment about the Chikens. Many of you knew Drunken ZEHN, so you know his comments are genuine.

http://www.thelostlegions.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=225

[Anonymous]

My reaction was "by the book." The thread was closed with a brief explanation and moved to the Cloud 9 forum so that it would not be lost in case the council decided to reinstate the post. The reason for the move was not the content of the thread but the fact that snake and I were fighting in it, which is a huge no in terms of the Chiken Confederation.

I would have loved nothing more than to continue the discussion, but I will not tolerate being part of a fight with other chikens on my own part in public. If any chiken wishes to further this discussion, I ask that you please move this to the Confidential forum where we can better get a grasp of the issue.

[DysedChiken]

I don't know what to say Martyr.


Honestly I beleive that what Lazy posted is correct. I landed us in some serious hot water. Chiken as a whole suffered some serious abuse at the hand of others but in the end everyone in this community (Chiken) supported me and my descions as lead on the subject.

We have all changed in the years we have played togethor. Mayhap a bit older and wiser but the truth is I am sooooooooooooooooooo glad to call so many Chikens my friends that no matter whom the Chiken.....publically I would support them in our home I might ask why?.

I don't think this issue of censure you allude to is what you think it is.

But can I ask a pointed question?

Why the Fawk we debating this outside your true clothes (that being that of AngelChiken)?

Do you not beleive you had voice enough to change to within perhaps?

Honestly, Angel consider well this question. Because as much as you might be Martyr or think you are one.......in the end you are Chiken and always allowed the right to come home if you wish it.

I for one was very sad when you opted to leave.

BAWK!!age

Dysed

[Anonymous]

Guys, this isn't Playboy's website.

I didn't censor the maddox thread immediately, even though I was one of the first to see it, because there was a warning with the thread, which "Parental Guidance" would take care of.

However, I did voice my opinion of the content there because I do disagree with it, and still carry the same opinion of said content.

My censorship was merely a combined result of the request for deletion by the original poster of the topic and the fight that ensued over the difference in opinion. I still stand behind my assertions made in the posts of the thread and would still love to interact with the other Chikens who voiced opinions there.

However, it is not and has never been the practice of Chiken Confederation or any of its members to fight publically or show anything but support for fellow chikens.

I welcome differences of opinion when made with a cool head, no matter how strong those differences may be, but see no reason for us to detour from the path of unity and start badmouthing other chikens publically on our forum.

To this end, I consider the PUBLIC discussion over the nature of Maddox' website to be closed unless the other members of the council decide otherwise, at which time I, too, will go back to voicing opinions about it.

(There is an active discussion in the private area regarding this.)

[NemesisChiken]

I find that thread from Martyr offensive and demeaning and I want it removed

:clubbed: me
angel

(I miss my Lab partner!!)

BAWK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

[meafy]

i never saw the thread in question, and well, i don't know you all but i find it worrying that you can't have an open PUBLIC discussion.

I must say that these are YOUR board and as such you are within your right to create and enforce any rule you see fit. However other people use these boards as well and would it not serve the chikens better to include these people in any discussion about these rules ?